[Solved] OSXL threatened - Help us choose

[Leon]

UPDATE:
While we havent recieved an offical word from IPB - we have recieved a payment notification (even with a small rebate) to offically remove the copyright notification.

I want to thank everyone who have donated to make this happen - i am happy to say that OSXL remains online and ads free forever.

We are still counting coins - but with the money that came in we are even able to renew the license for the software.

From whatever is left, i suggest the following options:

1) Add the IP:Chat to OSXL - Yes, you will be able to chat with each other
2) Donate them to other projects whoms technology we all benefit from
3) Make online video of Bronxtech and Herve get drunk ? *bad humor warning*

Again, i want to extend my... our.. gratitude for everyone who took their time and money to make this happen... you all rock! - and you have my promise i will do my best make OSXL the best site for you i can.

-------



Hi,

Today i am writing one of those posts i never really hope i would hope i would have to - but we need your help to decide.

Background:
Since the founding of OSXL we have always had a policy never to advertise for another company without good reason (eg. a really great deal for our users) -  But we now feel that we are in a situation were we need your help.
OSXL is a free site - we do this for free and honestly - running OSXL means nothing but cost to the crew behind the site in terms of Time, money for hosting, license cost etc etc.


The short version:
A few days ago we contacted invision (the creators of IP:Board, the forum software we use) to (like we always do) - get their help in upgrading the forum software - but unlike the other 5-6 times we now got slapped with a notification that we need to change our copyright with something like a "powered by invision IP:Board" and a link to their website - because for some reason it says so in their license terms - something that we have seen and heard about before - one should think that they would have told us earlier - i mean, we have been using this theme for quite some time.

So, why is this such a big deal?
Its a big deal because of SEO and ethics - in SEO (Search Engine Optimization) the golden rule is - the more links you have - the higher you will rank and since they want their link on all pages - we would literally be giving them close to 48000 links to their company - for free - thats something you usually would pay good money for.
On another hand - we were not exactly asked nicely to add it - and - where I come from Sweden - rules is a bit different - american rules does not apply here - we live and are hosted in Scandinavia - and finally - we are a customer at invision - treating properly one of their bigger customers like this is nothing i personally would suggest.


The options:
So, we have a choice to make.

1) We can close down the site - over and out and cya.
2) We can pay up the 500$ and move on
3) We can put up a link to their site - Just dosent feel right.. does it ?
4) We can move to new software, but that will invovle weeks of downtime while we create a new theme - and at this point i am not even sure if we CAN import the data from IP:Board to eg. phpbb

All in all - we have to make a choice and act fast.. or OSXL is gone in 72 hours.


The mail conversation:
 

Leon Bollerup

07 August 2015 - 05:03 AM

Hi,

Can you initiate a upgrade please.

Thank you.

 

Mark Higgins

12 August 2015 - 02:44 PM

Hello.

 

Before we're able to assist with this, it was noticed that the copyright was removed from your skin, but you have not purchased the Copyright Removal option.

You'll need to replace the copyright and its hotlink, or purchase the Copyright Removal package from the Client Area.

Please let us know how you'd like to proceed.

Thank you.

 

Mark Higgins
Invision Power Services, Inc.

 

 

Leon Bollerup

12 August 2015 - 02:53 PM

Hi,

 

First of all - the copyright was not removed by intention - secondly - live in sweden - that means that unless i actually have signed a contract with you - then there by law is no way i am forced to keep another companys logo or trademark - it is simply not enough that i click accept or use some software - i have to legally sign it an agree with it - however - we do have laws that state that since i have legally bought the software it is within my right to use it as i want (except for piracy offcourse and in any other way where i might break the law)

 

Dont take me wrong, i understand both the SEO and commercial value if you are able to put your trademark along with a link on everybodys site - but please dont make it into a thing where i am forced todo so - i happen to know the law quite good.

 

So - what i would like to know is :

 

1) How this can impact any existing services that i (legaly) have bought via your company if i choose not to add your copyright

 

2) What is the cost in case i need to buy it ? (bear in mind, that we had a company design that theme and dont have the people to actually do the modifications needed ourself)

 

//Leon

 

Lindy Throgmartin

13 August 2015 - 11:32 PM

Leon,

I'm not going to engage in lengthy debate on this. I'm not particularly interested in where you're located -- the license agreement, which you agreed to by use of the software, is governed exclusively by the laws of the United States. Further, removing the copyright is a violation of the license agreement and provides IPS the right to terminate your license. I have exercised that right and your license is hereby terminated.

 

I'm sorry you chose to be difficult about this instead of simply adding the copyright back.

Regards,

Lindy Throgmartin
Management Team

 

 

Leon Bollerup

14 August 2015 - 04:57 AM

Hi,

First of all - i am suprised about the way you handle this and would like to talk to your manager.

 

I clearly - very clearly infact just asked about the cost of paying so we dont have to show it - so let me repeat that one more time.

 

"2) What is the cost in case i need to buy it ? (bear in mind, that we had a company design that theme and dont have the people to actually do the modifications needed ourself)"

 

Second of all - USA laws apply in USA - USA is not the world - BUT - we are infact your customers - have been for quite a long time - is this how your treat your customers ? Wouldent it have been better to tell us this in a nice way and maybe offer us help to add it back? - you choose to go the other way and throw away a customer - a very good customer i might add.

 

You had a choice here - and you choose to show outright dis-respect for your own customer - frankly - i would be really.. really ... surprised if this was the policy in your company.

 

1) Lets this straith - i never said we woudlent add it or buy the right to leave it as it is - infact - i asked for a price - you dident give it to me.

 

2) I said that i never signed such an agreement and where i come from it is required by law todo so - you did not even grant me the option to see that agreement - instead you terminated us as a customer - that was worst of ALL of the options - and you dident even offer a refund.

 

3) You ask me to respect the laws of your country - which i dont have a problem with - i have been in USA quite alot of times - love USA - but what hurts me most is that you utterly disregard the laws of mine - if it was me - i would have been forthcomming in the spirit of co-operation and suggested and explained why it was needed and offer my help to fix it - or even offered a rebate on the no-advertisement package.

 

As i said - i dont think you have handeled this very well in anyway - it is dis-respectful and its hurtfull that a company that we have a really good relationship to suddenly decide to act this way.

 

//Leon

 

Lindy Throgmartin

15 August 2015 - 12:31 AM

There was no need to imply the laws of your country supersede the copyright toour software. It is not a matter of the USA or Sweden, but simply a point that there's a license agreement and you've violated it. It would have been quite simple to say "sorry about that, I'll put it back" - this happens just about every day and nearly everyone else just puts it back or asks if we can do so and we all move on with our lives. For whatever reason, you chose this to take a stand on -- citing irrelevant rights in your country, lack of written contracts and asking "what if I choose not to?"

 

It's a pretty clear issue that I didx't and don't feel compelled to debate with you. The license agreement covers this quite clearly, you violated the license agreement and then chose to argue the point. My right is to terminate the license for violation and that's what I opted to do.

 

You may send an e-mail blast to whomever you would like. The point is you violated the license agreement and then were blatantly combative and difficult about it. There is no wrongdoing on our part -- we could have immediately terminated your license, but instead, provided you the opportunity to replace the copyright. You chose not to.

 

With that said, a copyright removal license is $500. I'm happy to extend one opportunity to put the copyright back or purchase the branding removal license. I'm not going to debate and further argue your perceived rights.

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Lindy Throgmartin
Management Team

 

Leon Bollerup

15 August 2015 - 06:23 AM

Hi Lindy,

 

First of all - thank you for taking time to review this - i understand that you must be busy and this is properly the last thing you want to spent time on.

 

I brought up the laws since i have _never_ seen a license agreement, never signed anything and in the 2-3 years we have used the skin developed by a 3rd party company we have gone thru 3-4 upgrades via your support - in that time we have _never_ ONCE heard about this issue.

 

I might be mistaken, but i think your support even consulted us on howto install the skin - and not even there it was mentioned - do you see the problem from my side ?

 

Out of nowhere we are slapped with a requirement that we have no knowledge of singing and we are threaten - how can i react any other way than hostile ? - There is so many companies trying to exploit small sites as us - if you see it from our point of view - would you have reacted any different - your support could have handeld it quite different... a simple:

 

"We have noticed that your copyright have been replaced - you might have missed that in our license agreement it states that you must keep a reference to our company or alternative purchase a package that allows you to remove it - since this is properly a misstake we would like to help you resolve the issue so we can move and upgrade your site - your options are XXXX .. since we do have admin access to your site we can help you handle this"

 

Now.. i am 200% sure we would have reacted quite different in that situation.

 

And no, while english is not my native language - i did not see it as an option to even put it back on in your first email - more of a threat - we had broken a rule in your book that we did not know about and have not signed - and so forth you did not want to help us instead you closed our license (which you infact did).

 

So.. what i would like now is:

 

1) Some link to the license agreement that i have accepted stating that we need to advertize for your company (notice that we have no other advertisements on our site - the entire site is funded by its users as a opensource envoirment) - i just want to review it and show it to the user board since it does break our most holy rule - no ads.
Basiclly get an understanding of the issue from your point.

 

2) Some guide/howto/instructions for what is is you want us to show on our site.

 

3) As an alternative - show us where we can purchase the this no-ads thing - i am considering asking our users for a donation to handle this.

 

I see no reason to hostile intentions between us - alot of OSX sites use ip:board and we like others - love the software - but would also like to be treated for what we are - your customers.

 

Thank you.

 

//Leon

 

Lindy Throgmartin

16 August 2015 - 09:42 PM

Leon,

 

You were not "slapped" with a requirement - you're being a bit ridiculous. The exact notification was:

 

"Hello.

 

Before we're able to assist with this, it was noticed that the copyright was removed from your skin, but you have not purchased the Copyright Removal option.

 

You'll need to replace the copyright and its hotlink, or purchase the Copyright Removal package from the Client Area.
Please let us know how you'd like to proceed."

 

As mentioned, I'm not going to debate this with you and I was serious about that. I extended the opportunity (again) to place the copyright back and you chose to argue (again) instead. The offer has been rescinded. The license agreement is clear (which is in the installer and on our website --https://www.invision...andards#license-- thousands of others have no issue with it. You may be the first in recent memory to take a very simple thing and turn it into a big thing. It's unfortunate you've chosen to do so, but I'm not expending anymore time on the dialogue. The license will not be reinstated regardless.

 

As a gesture of goodwill, I've refunded your most recent license renewal. You have 72 hours to remove the software from your site as it is no longer licensed.

Regards,

Lindy Throgmartin
Management Team

[Leon]

Sorry, we had it disabled so that you couldent comment - its enabled now, i will let the pool run for 48 hours - seeing that we only have a 72hour time window to deal with - after that the forum goes offline.

I will also update on what donations comes in - so far i have thrown 50$ in the pot and we just got another on 15$

 

[thepsguy]

I really think you could afford some downtime changing the forum software since these ip board guys seem to be really unfriendly. Might not be good for the long run.. Could try xenforo or something? There are many options available out there!

[Leon]

Ya, it might be the only option - but honestly - their software works really good and it have served us well.. 

The biggest question is wether we can import all data, users etc.

[kali2000]

These Americans believe to be the navel of the world ...

Sometimes it is better not to enter into polemics ...

If I am a customer and I get such treatment, quickly I seek another company.

At present there is a wide range of companies offering the same service and they compete to recruit customers.

I do not accept that an individual don't respect me.

Sorry but I vote for migrate to another company.

 

PD.

I would add that I am not a xenophobic or racist person, in fact I am Spanish and my wife is Romanian.

It's actually the same thing what country are you from, while you are an honest person and treat your promoan with respect.

 

If I donate, I will donate, but to search another company.

[TheWhiteDragon]

 

These Americans believe to be the navel of the world ...

Sometimes it is better not to enter into polemics ...

If I am a customer and I get such treatment, quickly I seek another company.

At present there is a wide range of companies offering the same service and they compete to recruit customers.

I do not accept that an individual don't respect me.

Sorry but I vote for migrate to another company.

 

 

id have to agree with Kali, export all the data and move, screw them for the attitude they have shown..

 

if you contact the other company's and explain the situation i'm sure for a small fee they will help with the import process, as you are bringing a lot of traffic to them & their site. if possible try and find someone more local to you.

[Vmonheros]

Hi Leon,

 

I just donate 50 euros (as we're in Europe, no fees). I would prefer that you "use" it to go to another forum software, however, I understand that It might required a lot of investments from the team and that can be a "bad" option.

 

So, even if I voted for changing the forum software, to be honest, I'm OK also if you decided to just go to pay for copyright removal as what is important for me it is that the community will continue to be here.

 

To the community, think that the team donate a lot of their time for this site, so we cannot "force" them to go to another forum software.

 

Fred.

[User1690]

Hello!

 

Its sad to see your getting such harsh treatment, i've long been a lurker (or a member, i forget...had to sign in with facebook because i couldnt remember my password! ) here and love this place! If that was me i'd promptly tell them to get screwed and i'd look into another company.

 

Just my own thoughts but I have a suggestion that May help, you guys could start from scratch using Simple Machines Forum software, i have used it myself and had a fully functional forum up in a few hours. Granted, you guys have probably gotten used to how things are but i highly suggest you seek other methods/companies as these guys are just being assholes. In their defense however, like everybody on the planet, money is needed to pay for the things we've come to enjoy. Apart from that, they are dicks and could have handled the situation better.

 

Simple Machines Forum, is Open Source too so i think you could hire some guys (or if you know yourselves!), modify it how you like and then have it all your own way. Im not Entirely sure but i dont think you need any external links or adverts or anything else either but i DONT KNOW if thats true. I just wanted to put it forward as a suggestion to you guys. And, its free! Their support forums are quite nice too

 

http://www.simplemachines.org/

 

(Quick edit: I just wanna say this post isnt intended to 'brag' about these guys (Simple Machines Forum), i dont represent them or anything im just putting forth a suggestion. Since in my experience some people can take this in so many other ways than intended   )

Edited August 17, 2015 by User1690

[Leon]

Thank you mate - lets see where we land in terms of donations and then we'll choose the best solution together - we have always been extremely strict with pointing out that this site and its services is run by its members and not a single identity - and i strongly believe that we can solve this if we stand together and choose wisely.

 

[benny007]

Hi Leon,

I have not been here for a while - since I run OSX on real Mac actually - but this morning I was shocked how those pigheads threat you; and whole project!

I am suggesting giving them up as with this attitude they are going to bancrupt soon anyway.

Please send me an email if I can be of any assistance with the replacement forum's preparations/database migration even some coding or something... I happy to "donate" my time to help you keep it running.

 

Good luck!

Pavel